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Apr 23, 2008 at 02:21 PM CDT
View Comments: 19
Should DoA alts be tolerated?
Posted by: kathunter
Is it good sportsmanship for professional gamers to use alternate characters in Training Camp matches? Tell is what you think.
Last night marked the opening of the Official CGS Pre-season Training Camp. While the videos have not been posted on thecgs.com, what you will see is many of the competitors playing with characters they did not use during the televised season. Is this fair? Are they hiding their secrets? Or does the pre-season simply allow us a freer platform to show these gamers true skills. WE WANT TO HEAR FROM YOU! Tell us what you think on the subject.
Tell us what you think!!! We will update this story with some of your comments as you post.
What the best of the best can do is take several characters and play at a high level. This is what makes the game so exciting at this professional level. We have all seen some amazing matches between these players main characters. Over and over. In actuality, we are allowed to give DirecTV three different characters we may want to choose from for every match. Some notice is required for basic production needs.
This is what makes players like BlackMamba, Perfect Legend, and Vanessa such a joy to watch! Does every CSS player play the same position on the same map every time? Do the FIFA players play with the same team every time in the CGS? DoA is the only CGS sport where we have seen most pro-gamers stick to one character during the televised season - even though not required - which has turned out to work against them in this situation.
We inadvertently pigeonholed these gamers.
No one is saying that we are not playing to win.
We just want to show you how many different ways we can do it
DOA online automatically places a limiter on the players. You can't play your best online, it's simply not possible. So you have two options, treat the Training Camp like it's meaningless and pick an alternate character, or have some respect for your fans and some respect as a player and use your main.
If you want to say that the pros may use alternates during the season, I'd have to pull my experience card. I've been a part of the high level fighting game community for over a decade. Very rarely do I see top players using alternates against other top players and I don't expect to see it in the CGS when it matters. You saw what happened to Perfect Legend when he used his alt against NinjaCW at the Combine.. and you saw what happened when he changed to his main. A 2-7 loss compared to a 10-0 win.
Tell us what you think!!! We will update this story with some of your comments as you post.
"I think its fine to use alt, especially if you feel you can win and usually everyone picking alt has been training with that character and wants to try them out. Also a lot of the viewers can see other characters that are not picked in the regular season."
- Vanessa
"Using an alternate character for the preseason isn't sandbagging to me unless you are picking a character that you don't know nothing about. ... If you are going out trying just throw matches cause you don't care then there is a problem. We can use other characters in the season so I wouldn't take the use of alternates as sandbagging. I would look at it more of practicing up with your secondary character for the season. ..."
- NinjaCW
"I think we all (every team in cgs) regardless of the conditions we are playing in should play to our best abilities. ... CGS is paying us players on a monthly basis + bonuses if we do well enough to play our best regardless of the conditions. Playing with alternate characters is in no way shape or form playing to our best abilities. Some players I can exempt from this rule (as far as DOA goes) cause I see them practicing with their alts everyday so they can have something to use if their main isn't doing well enough. Also there is a difference between a secondary character and a alternate character. Alternates are just characters you mess around with from time to time, but secondaries are characters you try to push to the level of your primary character or if not then very close to it."
- Perfect Legend via blog @
http://lacomplexity.thecgs.com/index.php?s=upanel&d=viewblog&b_id=2161
" I see no problem with the DOA players using the alternates for the same reason I see no problem with the css teams not running their new and/or normal strats. You dont see an NFL team running all their plays in their playbook in a preseason game or a pitcher pitching the whole game and throwing all of his pitches. I think a level of sandbagging is not only acceptable but mandatory. ... Preseason is for the fans and to build team chemistry, instead of each individual playing their game by themselves.
- Surgeon"
Tell us what you think!!! We will update this story with some of your comments as you post.
Kat Hunter's Take
I completely support the use of alternate characters in pre-season. Most anyone can take one character, learn the combos, and play a decent match. Ksharp and Clown are pretty great examples of this theory (pretty great actually).What the best of the best can do is take several characters and play at a high level. This is what makes the game so exciting at this professional level. We have all seen some amazing matches between these players main characters. Over and over. In actuality, we are allowed to give DirecTV three different characters we may want to choose from for every match. Some notice is required for basic production needs.
This is what makes players like BlackMamba, Perfect Legend, and Vanessa such a joy to watch! Does every CSS player play the same position on the same map every time? Do the FIFA players play with the same team every time in the CGS? DoA is the only CGS sport where we have seen most pro-gamers stick to one character during the televised season - even though not required - which has turned out to work against them in this situation.
We inadvertently pigeonholed these gamers.
No one is saying that we are not playing to win.
We just want to show you how many different ways we can do it
Bryan "DrDogg: Dawson's Take:
DOA online automatically places a limiter on the players. You can't play your best online, it's simply not possible. So you have two options, treat the Training Camp like it's meaningless and pick an alternate character, or have some respect for your fans and some respect as a player and use your main.
If you want to say that the pros may use alternates during the season, I'd have to pull my experience card. I've been a part of the high level fighting game community for over a decade. Very rarely do I see top players using alternates against other top players and I don't expect to see it in the CGS when it matters. You saw what happened to Perfect Legend when he used his alt against NinjaCW at the Combine.. and you saw what happened when he changed to his main. A 2-7 loss compared to a 10-0 win.
Tell us what you think!!! We will update this story with some of your comments as you post.
What do you really think? Our community speaks out
"I think its fine to use alt, especially if you feel you can win and usually everyone picking alt has been training with that character and wants to try them out. Also a lot of the viewers can see other characters that are not picked in the regular season."
- Vanessa
"Using an alternate character for the preseason isn't sandbagging to me unless you are picking a character that you don't know nothing about. ... If you are going out trying just throw matches cause you don't care then there is a problem. We can use other characters in the season so I wouldn't take the use of alternates as sandbagging. I would look at it more of practicing up with your secondary character for the season. ..."
- NinjaCW
"I think we all (every team in cgs) regardless of the conditions we are playing in should play to our best abilities. ... CGS is paying us players on a monthly basis + bonuses if we do well enough to play our best regardless of the conditions. Playing with alternate characters is in no way shape or form playing to our best abilities. Some players I can exempt from this rule (as far as DOA goes) cause I see them practicing with their alts everyday so they can have something to use if their main isn't doing well enough. Also there is a difference between a secondary character and a alternate character. Alternates are just characters you mess around with from time to time, but secondaries are characters you try to push to the level of your primary character or if not then very close to it."
- Perfect Legend via blog @
http://lacomplexity.thecgs.com/index.php?s=upanel&d=viewblog&b_id=2161
" I see no problem with the DOA players using the alternates for the same reason I see no problem with the css teams not running their new and/or normal strats. You dont see an NFL team running all their plays in their playbook in a preseason game or a pitcher pitching the whole game and throwing all of his pitches. I think a level of sandbagging is not only acceptable but mandatory. ... Preseason is for the fans and to build team chemistry, instead of each individual playing their game by themselves.
- Surgeon"
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moss
Posts: 1293
Location: Lakeland
PerfectLegend
Posts: 195
Location:
Pro Gamer
Hayate and Gen Fu are both my main characters.
kathunter
Posts: 554
Location:
Team GM
Referenced post #2 by PerfectLegend
Hayate and Gen Fu are both my main characters.Yes I know you used one of your mains even though originally you were listed as playing an Alt, so this is something you have thought about. What is your opinion?
General Manager // gamesurge IRC #optx - kat.hunter@sfoptx.com
Vanessa
Posts: 40
Location: Modesto
Pro Gamer
I think its fine to use alt, especially if you feel you can win and usually everyone picking alt has been training with that character and wants to try them out. Also a lot of the viewers can see other characters that are not picked in the regular season.
NinjaCW
Posts: 70
Location:
Pro Gamer
Using an alternate character for the preseason isn't sandbagging to me unless you are picking a character that you don't know nothing about. If you at least know what you are doing and can compete with the character you pick then there shouldn't be a problem. If you are going out trying just throw matches cause you don't care then there is a problem.
We can use other characters in the season so I wouldn't take the use of alternates as sandbagging. I would look at it more of practicing up with your secondary character for the season. If you have been practicing with a secondary this would be the opportunity to test out what you have been practicing.
We can use other characters in the season so I wouldn't take the use of alternates as sandbagging. I would look at it more of practicing up with your secondary character for the season. If you have been practicing with a secondary this would be the opportunity to test out what you have been practicing.
PerfectLegend
Posts: 195
Location:
Pro Gamer
http://lacomplexity.thecgs.com/index.php?s=upanel&d=viewblog&b_id=2161
Surgeon
Posts: 902
Location: Tallahassee
I see no problem with the DOA players using the alternates for the same reason I see no problem with the css teams not running their new and/or normal strats. You dont see an NFL team running all their plays in their playbook in a preseason game or a pitcher pitching the whole game and throwing all of his pitches. I think a level of sandbagging is not only acceptable but mandatory. Unless you are fighting for a position you have no reason to bring your A game. Preseason is for the fans and to build team chemistry, instead of each individual playing their game by themselves.
Last modified on 4/23/2008 at 4:26 pm EST
Last modified on 4/23/2008 at 4:26 pm EST
Ch0mpr
Posts: 517
Location: Camarillo
Pro Gamer
I think they should be able to use alternate characters, but that just shows the uselessness of the preseason.
Coolsvilla
Posts: 340
Location: Tulsa
Pro Gamer
No matter how much you want it to be played serious, a casual match will always remain casual. I can never expect someone to play to their tournament best in a casual match, sandbagging and other things aside. I have seen MANY examples of this at tournaments. Some players play completely different. Pressure and other things come into play. So sometimes the only to test your new character is to grit your teeth and take that new character to a tournament.
I remember when I went to the DOATEC tournament. Jared used Gen Fu and Mamba used Eliot, despite the fact that these were NOT their "mains." I see no difference between that case and the Training Camp. They wanted to test out whether they would change character or remain with their proven mains. But no one ran around with their hands in their air yelling "Wait a minute!"
I know that the Training Camp it's a tournament environment but it doesn't count towards the regular season. Why can't I use this opportunity to test out another character that I've been looking at? Maybe I'm training with Kasumi or other characters and I'm using them to see how I've improved with them. I admit that my Kasumi was not enough to keep pace with the improvement that Belle has made since last season but that just means that I use this opportunity to either drop Kasumi, put more work into her, choose another character I've been working on, or return to a proven character.
This assumption that people never change their mains is the only reason that this is an issue. If someone stood there and just taunted or random countered without throwing out an attack, then yes, you can berate them all you want because they're not even playing. But it feels like you're over looking what this Training Camp is- a Training Camp. And the word training would imply that the use of secondaries to see their level should be perfectly fine if still played to win.
I remember when I went to the DOATEC tournament. Jared used Gen Fu and Mamba used Eliot, despite the fact that these were NOT their "mains." I see no difference between that case and the Training Camp. They wanted to test out whether they would change character or remain with their proven mains. But no one ran around with their hands in their air yelling "Wait a minute!"
I know that the Training Camp it's a tournament environment but it doesn't count towards the regular season. Why can't I use this opportunity to test out another character that I've been looking at? Maybe I'm training with Kasumi or other characters and I'm using them to see how I've improved with them. I admit that my Kasumi was not enough to keep pace with the improvement that Belle has made since last season but that just means that I use this opportunity to either drop Kasumi, put more work into her, choose another character I've been working on, or return to a proven character.
This assumption that people never change their mains is the only reason that this is an issue. If someone stood there and just taunted or random countered without throwing out an attack, then yes, you can berate them all you want because they're not even playing. But it feels like you're over looking what this Training Camp is- a Training Camp. And the word training would imply that the use of secondaries to see their level should be perfectly fine if still played to win.
Grt
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i dont mind it at all DUGGGGG
tgchan
Posts: 5393
Location: Radom
I would choose only 1
When fate throws a dagger at you, there are only 2 ways to catch it: by the blade or by the handle.
When fate throws a dagger at you, there are only 2 ways to catch it: by the blade or by the handle.
kathunter
Posts: 554
Location:
Team GM
Referenced post #6 by PerfectLegend
http://lacomplexity.thecgs.com/index.php?s=upanel&d=viewblog&b_id=2161In response to PL's blog (for some reason I can't post on the coL site)
(btw PL and I have already had this discussion in person, but want to shorten it here)
1) There are players in this league who can proficiently play many toons, This is why we have the 3 character policy. Did everyone yesterday make a decision based on the character they felt they could win with? That is not for me to say.
2) You are professional gamers paid to play your best and you should be the person making the decision who you play along side your GM. Not past general choices you have made.
3) PL, if you were a taxi player this year... would you want your shot to beat BlackMamba in a Training Camp match, even if you knew good and well you were not going to be brought up as a main player. You bet your britches you would. I know that much about you my friend
General Manager // gamesurge IRC #optx - kat.hunter@sfoptx.com
ciaiei
Posts: 842
Location: Helsinki
you should be able to use your alts during pre-season, but I think the character count should be kept at 2 since there isn't really that many players that use more then 2 characters as their main (PL could be an exception).
This should stop some of the sandbagging since your at least playing with a character that you know how to play with... but that's just my opinion...
but at the same time as Coolsvilla said, players should be able to test their alts to see if they can keep them at the level needed...
and I'm pretty sure that none of the CS teams will use their A-game tactics until the real season
Are you shut-the-f***ing-up yet? -djWHEAT
coL fan since 2005
This should stop some of the sandbagging since your at least playing with a character that you know how to play with... but that's just my opinion...
but at the same time as Coolsvilla said, players should be able to test their alts to see if they can keep them at the level needed...
and I'm pretty sure that none of the CS teams will use their A-game tactics until the real season
Are you shut-the-f***ing-up yet? -djWHEAT
coL fan since 2005
oxidize
Posts: 129
Location: Madison
I think its fine to use alt chars so you have them down! Like i read most say there is 2 chars that each knows well. Got to train with them both! :-)
kathunter
Posts: 554
Location:
Team GM
The ruling is 3
General Manager // gamesurge IRC #optx - kat.hunter@sfoptx.com
General Manager // gamesurge IRC #optx - kat.hunter@sfoptx.com
foobz
Posts: 507
Location: Simi Valley
Didn't read the article but heres my two cents, a pitcher has many pitches to choose from, why cant a gamer be allowed to use a different pitch?
DaveCheppelle
Posts: 130
Location: Savannah
Pro Gamer
I hate online and its not ment to be taken seriously. But since we do .......o well
I thank God For the hard times and spots hes gotten me through, 3D!lets go all the way!
I thank God For the hard times and spots hes gotten me through, 3D!lets go all the way!
Rikuto
Posts: 13
Location:
Alts are a part of strategy.
The only limit which should be set on how many characters a professional player can use should be his own talent with those characters.
After all, different styles require different mentalities to fight them. One such thing to assist in that is changing your movelist to something more appropriate.
Last modified on 4/27/2008 at 10:41 pm EST
The only limit which should be set on how many characters a professional player can use should be his own talent with those characters.
After all, different styles require different mentalities to fight them. One such thing to assist in that is changing your movelist to something more appropriate.
Last modified on 4/27/2008 at 10:41 pm EST
CaliJared
Posts: 284
Location: Ontario
I think it's good because it gives the players a chance to test out their alternate characters in a competitive situation with relatively nothing to lose. It might even encourage them to use their alternates in ther acutal season matches when they otherwise wouldn't, and vise versa.
OPTX[CGS]GRT and moss
OPTX[CGS]GRT can u change ur sig to me
OPTX[CGS]GRT since moe is garb